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"If we keep going the way we're going with civil liberties, other countries are going to see us as a patsy," said Marta Salcedo, manager of a dental office in Manhattan. "You have to change with the times." Salcedo said she had little regard for the rights of suspects held in connection with the attacks. "They should torture them," she said. "Sometimes you have to do things that are uncivilized." --Most Americans Back U.S. Tactics, Washington Post, 11/29/01 Comments From Our Readers To The Above Have Been Overwhelming, Both In Number And In Spirit. Representative Examples Have Been Posted Below. More Will Be Posted As Time Permits. --Politex, Dec. 3. If we keep going as Bush and Ashcroft would have us go on civil liberties, we will be unable to distinguish our commitment to protecting rights and freedoms from the commitment of countries such as China. America is as much an idea as a place. The idea is of a nation of immigrants who, by coming here, gained greater liberties and rights. This administration clearly would rather trash all that. And it has the support of people who, in unconscious irony, paste God Bless America stickers all over their vehicles. --Anita
In my mind, I've connected so much of the Ashcroft/Bush attempt to curtail our civil liberties and their quest to hold middle-easterners without just cause as a reminder of what the Nazi's did in Germany in the 1930's.... I've noticed in many net forums here and elsewhere, people keep bringing up the quote of a non-Jew who was a victim of Nazi terrorism--a quote which should be a lesson to us all. Everyone seems to remember the beginning, "They came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't protest..." No one, including myself seemed to remember much beyond that, but I googled tonight and found the exact quote as follows: "Pastor Niemller (Anti-Nazi Resistance Movement) First they came for the Jews, but I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade-unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade-unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak out because I was not a Catholic. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me. (1939)" Listen up Americans, or we could soon have the same thing happen here via the dictates of our un-elected president, who has twice proclaimed that it would be easier if he was a dictator, and an attorney general, who has publicly declared that our only King in Jesus.... Anthony Lewis suggests that Americans are supporting this usurpation of our civil liberties because they don't really understand how these undemocratic and draconian measures to try supposed terrorists in a military tribunal could eventually affect them. Americans need more education and fast, in that if you read the fine print in these Bush/Ashcroft Executive Orders that they threaten honest Americans' rights to assembly and peaceful protest as well. Our mainstream media, who will suffer as well, although they're too Washington arrogant to realize it, need to be portrayed as the money and power grabbing buffoons that they are. The REAL journalists are out here in the rest of the country, and in Europe and elsewhere around the world. --Jo Ann
The 6th amendment to the Constitution guarantees the right to a speedy, public trial. These military trials ,when held in other countries, are an anthesis to our freedom. Our Constitution is not there to protect popular beliefs. Our constitution does not just protect American citizens. It protects all those who live within its borders. Once we open the doors to these blatant, illegal actions against our constitution, it will be easy to find reasons to use them against American citizens down the road. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, "those who would surrender liberty for a little freedom deserve neither." --Karen,
I have discovered that most Americans say they support democracy, while failing to demonstrate even the most basic knowledge of what democracy really is. Many people equate nationalism with democracy, but nationalism puts America above its ideals. Others equate democracy with majority rule, but unless minority rights are simultaneously protected, majority rule simply becomes temporary totalitarianism, with rights held hostage to public opinion. Basically, democracy depends upon something that most Americans lack--humility. Unless we are humble enough to admit that we are not perfect, that all voices have an equal right to speak, that none of us have uncovered absolute truth, and that being civilized in the face of uncililized behavior is necessary, we will fail to protect the one thing we proclaim is dearest to us. --Susan
Now that I know how the media spun the NORC results, and knowing how the media savaged Gore during the campaign by reporting RNC rumors/spin, why should I trust a media poll that seemingly indicates overwhelming support for Bush and his policies? If a majority of Americans truly are not worried about civil rights and think military tribunals are acceptable, they are woefully misinformed. --Cherly
It always amazes me how people are willing to give up the rights our forefathers fought for so easily when it suits the political agenda of the moment. The true patriot is the liberal willing to protect the protest rights of the more peaceful pro-life people. The true patriot is the conservative willing to stand up against those willing to gut our Constitution for the sake of terrorism and gaining more personal power. What we have is the opposite; it's ok to protest if it's 60's radicals or Bush aides molesting an election official when it's politically convenient. If Gore had been appointed President, I'm sure the arguments would be the same...just switch the politically partisan faces. I'm sure our forefathers [are] crying in their coffins at the shallowness of their offspring. --Ken
If we stoop to torture and other sadistic forms of gathering information, then we are no better than the ones who perpetrated this despicable attack on Sept. 11. I am a veteran of the United States Army, serving in the 515th Combat Engineers from 1969 until 1971. While I deplore what Bin Laden and his cohorts have done, I see no reasons to erode the liberties that we have fought to maintain for over 200 years. While some drastic measures may be needed to bring the terrorists to justice, the Constitution must be not only observed, but protected. --Garnett According to some of the postings made in reply to the comments quoted by Marta Salcedo, the people of the U.S. are "dumbing down" and have become "sheep." I do not believe that America is "dumbing down." What I do believe is that we have become too reliant upon instant Gratification, and our leaders in Washington don't want to tell us that changes in consumptive behavior are needed because they fear for their jobs. "Take care of Al Qaeda as quickly as possible and don't tell us that we may have to lose the SUV. The last thing we need is inconvenience." This seems to be the line of thought most Americans are following. People tend to forget that wars are fought on two fronts, the battle front and the home front. During WW2 Americans on the home front went without certain amenities to aid those overseas. That is not the message I see in this "war." God forbid that anyone in the U.S. congress should speak up and say our foreign oil addiction has to be dealt with realistically. As for the military tribunals for non-citizens, I do not oppose them, but I do not like the fact that they should be secret. With regard to torturing suspects, this is the U.S.A., not some third world dictatorship. We are supposed to be above such things and better than that. We are not "dumbing down," but we are afraid to think. --Richard
I don't worry too much about what torture would do to the terrorists, but about what becoming torturers would do to us. --Dj
Much as I hate the attacks, my own daughter was missed by 30' at the Pentagon, I also fear the loss of liberty. If I could be sure who would lose their rights, maybe I would feel differently. I hesitate to give anything more to the government's care. I do not trust Bush and his people at all. While I tried to support the administration after the attacks, I cringed at the decisions being made to aid the rich while we were all in such a state of mind. They took advantage of our fears and did things we would never permit in normal times, so I don't trust them now. --Pat
We are indeed living in extraordinary times. Recently more and more Americans seem to be buying into the Bush administration's position that abrogating individual rights during this time is not only necessary but desirable. My father served in WWII as did three of my uncles and virtually every one of the other kids in my neighborhood shared that commonality. Our fathers, uncles and in some cases our older brothers served and fought the Nazi regime. Later, as I progressed through the schooling process we all go through, one question kept nagging at me and for all I read, I could not understand how the German people could allow the abuses and the trampling of human rights under the Nazis to happen. Sadly, I am now seeing exactly how it happened. Of course, for the moment at least, the Bush admininstration is confining its suspension of Constitutional guarantees to non-citizens; you know, THEM. Our Supreme Commander, gifted as he is with the ability to gaze into men's souls and determine their goodness or lack thereof, will be the final arbitor of a person's fate. Should he determine that individual to be a terrorist it's off to the Military Tribunal and perhaps a bit of torture to extract a modicum of information before being executed, with no means to appeal the exalted one's omniscient judgement. Oh, we may quibble about how much 'physical coercion' is appropriate but not, to most Americans apparently, the appropriateness of 'physical coercion'. After all, it is applied to THEM, not us. It is always easier for us to deny THEM the same degree of humanity we enjoy, THEY, after all, are our enemies. THEY do us harm. The Nazis had a solution, the Nazis put 6,000,000 of THEM to death. We need not be so extreme, we need only to detain THEM without charge, deny THEM the right to see the evidence against them, put THEM on trial in secret and execute THEM without the world knowing about it. Yes, sadly I am begining to understand. Sieg Heil! --William
I am dumbfounded by people's reaction to the extraordinary steps the Bush administration is taking in the guise of fighting terrorism. In addition to the questionable legality of secretly detaining people, listening in on attorney-client conversations and trying suspected terrorists in secret military tribunals, don't people realize that it is a VERY small step to say that we should also apply such tactics to naturalized citizens (after all they're not REAL citizens), then perhaps to "bad" citizens with the Attorney General deciding who is "bad". I am equally troubled by President Bush's decree the he and he alone, without review, will determine who will be tried by military tribunal and for what charges. We don't live in a monarchy or Stalinist Russia! I am so worried about this that I literally cannot sleep at night. I have written my two US Senators and Senator Leahy about this and have contacted noted attorney and law professor Michael Tiger (my wife used to work with him) who thinks Bush's actions are impeachable offenses. I just don't know what else I can do as an ordinary citizen. --Ron If we have to imitate the bad guys in order to beat them, they've already won. --Kenneth
The attack on civil rights is horrific. We have had so many terrible events in my lifetime: mass murders, assassinations, wars and crimes against humanity. Through it all, my country was able to not only rise above the knee-jerk reaction of an eye-for-an eye, but to lead the entire world toward even-handed justice for all criminals. With the war drums beating, it is easy to forget that 82 nations lost people. It isn't just about the United States. Are other nations curtailing the civil rights their people enjoy? Are other governments changing due process and ignoring their own rules of governing? Are other nations openly discussing torture of suspected terrorists? If we as a nation accept the mentality that its all right for Bush's tribunals, that its all right Rumsfeld to declare no quarter (or same as), that its all right for a small cadre of people to determine the course of this nation while isolating themselves from the public, then it is clear that when the towers fell, so did the United States. I find it hard to believe that the people who envisioned this country, the people who guided it, shaped it, respected and cherished it want us to take it in an entirely different direction. When evil happens, it feeds on itself. It is easier to react rather than think. It is easier to give in to anger. It is easier to do evil things. Americans don't have to let it be like this. I hope people who say that suspension of civil rights, kangaroo courts and torture are acceptable will ask themselves: would I sign the paper that changes the Constitution? Would I be judge and jury? Would I be willing to hurt another person? We the people are the government. If we allow these things, then it is a reflection of ourselves. I don't want to look in that mirror. --Martha
Freedom "FROM" (as well as "OF") religion was one of the concerns of our Founding Fathers. Also, DUE PROCESS was part of the equation. People who speak with their feelings, instead of reason, obviously don't know that damages that the majority (mob) can impose on the minorites, of which the Japanese-Americans during World War II and the Native Americans are 2 good examples. Let's hope that rational intelligence prevails, instead of the lower-element's lynching rhetoric. --Douglas
No, I'm definitely not one of those who believes that we should resort to uncivilized tactics but I do wonder about the logistics:
I have raised one flag since the eleventh of September. It sits in the back window of my gold '75 Chevy camper van. It is a small flag, probably about 10" x 8". It's the only flag I own. It is the flag that I took from the earth covering the grave of my uncle George. My uncle was a nineteen year old soldier who made it through the Normandy D-day invasion but was murdered a short time later by a German sniper. He was killed just outside the town his unit had liberated. Just outside the French town of St. Lo my uncle died fighting to preserve our freedoms and civil rights. My uncle died fighting people who wanted to take away those liberties. Our government says that in order to preserve those freedoms my uncle George died for we have to give them up. Who are the enemy now? I understand that the rights established in our Constitution and written into the Preamble of the Declaration are human rights. Not American rights but human rights; guaranteed by our creator. They are our rights because we are human, not because we are American. Our government says I am wrong and that non-Americans are not entitled to be treated as fairly as I. My government says that these people are not worthy of the rights we enjoy as Americans just like the Nazis said that non-Arians were un-worthy. They pointed their fingers at Jews, our government points theirs at Arabs. Who are the enemy now? --Jerry and Janice
Dear Marta,
Hoping you have a nice day even if you've made other plans, I remain,
The Post article really didn't plow any new ground. Polling done well before September 11 had revealed that the majority of Americans consistently expressed sentiments indicating that they didn't appreciate, and would readily abandon, many of the protections afforded them in the Bill of Rights. Thus, the reason that these privileges weren't taken away by authoritarian-leaning politicians had little to do with the public. Instead, in the past, our more totalitarian law makers (who are almost universally on the right) have been reigned in by their more highly principled counterparts, (who thankfully exist on both the left and on the right). Contrary to the media mantra, very little "changed" on 9/11. Our country remains virtually impervious to any foreign force who would seek to impose their system of governance upon us by force or through edict. At the same time, we remain highly vulnerable to the sort of terrorists who are willing to die to inflict damage. Neither of those two facts are likely to change much, regardless of how many National Guardsmen are stationed at airports. What *did* change was *our* willingness to destroy the freedoms we have enjoyed for over two hundred years. This is, perhaps, the greatest irony of the entire tragedy. In limiting or doing away with our own freedoms, we have done what the terrorists could not have accomplished in a million years, left to their own devices. If the terrorists' goal was for American society to change such that it more closely resembles their own (secret trails, limits on expression, etc.) they have indeed won. The tragedy is that we have given them this victory for nothing in return. We are no safer for having jettisoned our freedoms. --brew, www.thedailybrew.com
Why am I not surprised? This fine flag waving "manager" of a dental office is your typical brain washed citizen that has avidly lapped up all the propaganda slops that the corrupt U.S. elite has dished out. A typical one dimensional solution to a multidimensional problem-- of course the injustice and cruelty escape this fine upstanding moron just as she will be hard pressed to understand why her country has developed implacable enemies all over the world. Just ask her, she will probably answer "Because they envy out freedom!" or some such regurgitated elitist propaganda. Excuse me while I go and vomit. --S.A.
I was on a jury once, and one of the other jurors during our discussion of guilt or innocence said,"He must be guilty or the police wouldn't have arrested him." The question this leaves, among others, is why do we have trials at all? Do the authorities never make mistakes? Do the words innocent until proven guilty have no meaning? --Victoria
hmmmmm... sounds kinda Middle-Eastern -- certainly fits the profile. Salcedo should be detained indefinitely as a terrorist suspect, and questioned thoroughly by the FBI. I'm sure the FBI will freely entertain the torture idea at her request. --Rob Unlike Ms. Salcedo, I worry that if we continue the present erosion of civil liberties as spearheaded by the current administration, we are heading to a dark and unpleasant future--we in this country are certainly not safe from the predations of our own American brand of the Taliban: the Reactionary Right, Corporate Amerika, and our own religious fundamentalists. She speaks of having to do things that are "uncivilized"--hell, war is uncivilized! But giving up even small increments of our precious civil liberties drags this country closer to the one thing that gives us a certain superiority over other nations: our constitutional guarantees of certain civil liberties, of the right to privacy, and the rights guaranteed to those accused of crime among them. Never mind that we often fall short of truly enjoying those rights, at least we have the knowledge of how things are, under our constitution, supposed to work. Those rights are far more important to this country than any icon we've erected, be it the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, or the White House itself. Those structures can easily be replaced. Not so our liberties. As a footnote, I must confess an additional uneasiness that a country in which the ACLU, liberalism, social welfare, and the progressive agenda are all held in contempt by a seeming majority of its citizens (and certainly by this administration) is doubly vulnerable to an erosion (perhaps permanently) of individual right and freedom at this particular time. --Beth
George W. Bush was ordained by God to guide us on a path of Reicheousness. --Michael * For years I've been saying that while America has it's share of problems, it's still a better place to live than anywhere else in the world. Currently, I cannot justify this. I read statements from people that okay the use of Gestapo tactics and recommend that we curtail the freedoms we hold dear and I feel both sad and angry at this idea that our Constitution is thought to be less valuable than our flag. We have allowed a gang of thugs who use a puppet "president" to carry out their goals of raping the country for a few extra dollars and curtailing free thought, free speech and intelligent dissent in the name of "Morality and Security". After sixty years of apologizing for interring Japanese-Americans during a time of war, we are coming very close to the same obscene treatment of Arab-Americans. America is the greatest country simply because we not only allow for differences, but embrace them. Should we allow for the destruction of our valued ideals, we will quickly become the kind of grotesque monster, a Grendel of sorts, that the rest of the world fears and eventually destroys so it may sleep at night. God bless America and keep us safe from our worst devils. --Jonathan
Some day the government may torture her. --Peter
Those who support the current assault on traditional civil liberties seem to do so with the attitude that "they're only foreigners and terrorists; who cares about their rights." But that misses the point. It's not so much about terrorism but about us. What have we always thought about countries that imprison people without charging them, that hold them indefinitely with no rights of habeas corpus, that deny them even the right to appeal death sentences, that permit the government to eavesdrop on conversations with their lawyers, that do not require the unanimous vote of a jury or tribunal? We have always regarded these abuses as odious, as the products of totalitarian or authoritarian regimes; yet here we are, acting as the worst of these regimes have acted. What does this say about us as a people, that in the name of fighting against terrorism and "for freedom," that we abandon the very way of life that we say we are fighting for? --Norman
I can not believe any person would give up one constitutional right. If we as a society condone torture we are moving toward a dictatorship must faster than I originally believed... --Peace
Marta Salcedo, huh? Sounds like a foreigner to me. She is, therefore, suspect and should be investigated, detained, incarcerated and, ... oh yeah, what was that she advocated? ... tortured. How eagerly we give up our rights and humanity when we think it will affect only other people - never us. --Suzanne
Arrest her and torture her. She may be a terrorist in disguise! --Ray It is amazing to me. Over the years the media, citizens, corporations, and government of these United States of America have expressed horror over other countries who detain, torture, and disappear "suspects." And now many in the U.S. are supporting similar actions - without any real debate. Those other countries have been branded less civilized and not having the sophistication to developed a law enforcement system and legal system in order to investigate and prosecute potential criminal threats. Now it is our turn. --Mike
I read the same troubling poll. People clearly don't understand the implications of Shrub's edict. Our work is certainly cut out for us. --John Most Americans do not realize that once we lose rights (no matter why) we pretty much lose them totally. Or else they don't understand what can be done to others even if for a right or just cause can be used on the rest of us. The dumbing down of America has been with us for quite some time and the government uses this to their advantage. Right now people tend to think that any questioning of what the governement is doing is unpatriotic. This is so far from the truth. It is the questioning by citizens that makes us true Americans! That's what makes this country so great. I pray people do not lose sight of this fact. --Catherine
I saw this in the Post late last evening and couldn't believe it. How do you even begin to argue with someone whose level of ignorance is so high? This is all purely reflexive, survivalistic, base behaviour. Clearly Marta has not evolved in her finer human instincts. I can only assume that people such as she have reverted to the "kill or be killed" standard of primitive societies. The more I hear the more distressed I become. --Cecile
Great let's us just become a dictatorship, as Bush would like, as long as he is the dictator! Unfortunately it will probably take another thirty years to get back the freedoms we are giving up in just a matter of weeks. --Dale
Don't these anti-civil liberties people have a clue? It's ironic that people like her don't understand that the reason the United States is such a great place to live is for the civil rights and protections we provide people regardless of race, gender, religion, etc. And yet she wants to do away with all of that for some small-minded, ill-conceived, misguided notion of "payback." So sad. --Maria
It's really hard to make up my mind on how I feel about civil liberties. Sometimes I feel the Bush administration may be going too far with their "military tribunals" etc., but then I see a picture of ground zero or I see the New York skyline without the twin towers and then I'm not so sure. --Marianne
I think it's reprehensible that any thinking person would want to even consider such things as torture--as well as feeling okay about losing freedom and security 'because it's war-time'. How can so many Americans back the actions of the Bush Administration? Well, they probably have other things in common too, like waving flags and driving gas-guzzlers--and not reasoning things out. --Paul
I to want a "pound of meat" out of them. Unlike Selcado, I would want those responsible to spend a night in Riker's Island Detention Facility, in population, waiting trial. That would be payback enough. It is ironic that the illegitimate president and his persecutor general seem to think "Texas Justice" is good for the whole nation. Oh if all the votes were really counted. --Howard
Marta's comments are what happens when gym coaches teach civics.Pitiful. --Sheila
Although the tactic may go against everything we stand for as a people and a nation- we must remember that the only way to get their attention is to hit them between the eyes with a stick. We have tried diplomacy for years and it hasn't worked because America insists on applying Western Morality to Eastern Fanaticism. It just doesn't work. Sometimes, you just have to speak the only language terrorists understand - violence directed back at them. Another thing to remember, only U.S. Citizens and people in this country legally with a green card are entitled to protection under the U.S. Constitution. If you are here, illegally, breaking our laws, killing and planning mass destruction, you are not entitled to our protections. We have plenty of cargo planes to just ship illegals who want to destroy us back to their own countries, and diplomacy be damned. I don't understand giving protection under the law to people who want to destroy this country and the very laws that would otherwise protect them. --Nikki
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